Talk:Symon Petliura

NPOV

I moved the huge material to the article about the assassin. However, the article is now still biased.

What is missing here, the account of the effort of the Petlura to stop the pogroms and witness testimony that he was not an anti-Semite himself.

I hope that anynody can help me with NPOV this article. Cautious 09:19, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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The bias you see is because you want to believe that Petliura was some sort of saint. He may not have been directly responsible for the pogroms that were committed and organized by the Ukrainian army-- nowhere does the article claim that he was. But he was the head of government and Commander of that army while they were going on. Thus, as it rightly notes, " Petliura's responsibility...was a widely held belief among Jews." That's a factual statement. It does not say that Petliura was responsible; it says that the belief that he was responsible was widely held by Jews.

To say that he tried to "stop the pogroms" is nice, but you provide no basis or support for your argument. Read the very balanced review of historian Henry Abramson's book listed in the external links.

The information you deleted, without comment, was taken from the articles cited in those links -- from the Ukrainian Weekly, in particular -- based on the historical accounts, court records and eyewitness-testimony. Do you deny the information therein? Do you understand the difference between your own opinion and what has been documented as true? Did your school not require you to differentiate between reality and fiction?

I have removed your change: "The problem with Petlura responsibility for the Pogroms, is that he himself was not an Anti-Semite and he tried to stop them, intrducing capital punishment for that crime. This decreased the number of the pogroms. Petlura is accused of being the head of state, on the territory of which there happenned pogroms."

Your deletion of actual, historical information and substitution with your own personal opinion is what introduces bias. This is contrary to the nature of Wiki.

If you want to improve the article, provide counter-examples -- based in documented history.

LeFlyman 13:13, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Mr Flybrain, we are supposed to make review out of external resources. It is too difficult to understans for you?? OK, you gets all material. Cautious 13:41, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes, your English is impossible to understand. The section you plagiarised has been removed for copyright infringement. I'd suggest you try to re-write it in your own words, but I suspect that would be a painful exercise in futility. LeFlyman 16:15, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have edited the information on pogroms somewhat, as it seems to reflect some bias. Two sources on Ukrainian history - written by University of Toronto historian PAul MAgosci and York University prof ORest Subtelny - cite the number of victims as approximately 35,000-50,000. I'm not sure where the 100,000 figure came from (it contradicts subsequent information about the estimate total number of Jewish victims in the Russian empire ranging from a low point of 70,000), but I have retained it anyways while adding the lower estimate. I added the information about Petliura's execution of the otaman (warlord) Semesenko for committing the notorious pogrom in Proskuriv.

With respect to Solzhenitsin's figues in terms of who was to blame for the pogroms, I added some balance by provided numbers cited by Ukrainian researchers. Those numbers were included in Orest Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, published by the University of Toronto Press in 1988 ISBN 0-8020-5808-6.

NPOV removal

This article have an NPOV disclaimer since February. Is it still a dispute over it? Przepla 21:58, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think it still needs a lot more historical material unrelated to the pogrom question, but both sides of that issue seem to be represented. I'll remove the notice, and resolve to do some more reading so I can expand this article. Anyone else care to chip in too? —Michael Z. 03:38, 2005 Jan 14 (UTC)

Title - Holovnyi Otaman

Changed ataman to Otaman.

Unreliable sources and Same source listed several times

"It has been documented that Petliura actively sought to halt anti-Jewish violence on numerous occasions, introducing capital punishment for the crime of pogroming"

This (at the very end) includes several citations from the same author. I do not think any of the sources cited are reliable but at the very least the same author shouldn't get 3 or 4 of the citations... 2600:1700:A1C1:9C20:580F:2570:9FD6:479E (talk) 04:54, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

• Good catch. I made some changes to address this. –Ploni (talk) 14:17, 25 April 2022 (UTC)